I've been using a Dahon Boardwalk for almost two years now for my daily ride (3 mi. each way) between the commuter rail station and my workplace. I found after about a year of riding that the chain had stretched so much that I had to remove one of the links (after reaching the limit of the rear dropout). I've been thinking that I'd like for my next bike to have an internal hub because it seems it might hold up better to commuting abuse than a derailleur, but I am a little concerned that I'd be faced with a similar problem with the chain over time. Any thoughts, both about the chain stretch problem and the more general question of internal hub v. derailleur? Thanks! -Robert
Internal hub v. derailleur
August 10, 2011 - 9:42am
#1
Internal hub v. derailleur
August 10, 2011 - 10:16am
#3
Hi Robert,
As Thor said, the cost of a chain is really pretty minor relative to the other pluses and benefits.
A derailleur set up is more efficient, lighter, and often less expensive.
A hub set up is lower in maintenance, much more weather resistant, and can be a lot cleaner because you can use a chainguard or BioLogic FreeDrive.
If you’ve enjoyed your single speed and you don’t feel the need for more gears, then stick with a simple system like that. Simpler is more often than not, better. You might want to check out the Link Uno.
August 10, 2011 - 10:21am
#4
Hi Thor,
Thanks for the quick reply. I actually purchased a new chain for the Boardwalk (which is, indeed a single-speed), but because of wear, it no longer fit the rear cog properly and made a terrible racket, so I went back to the old chain and removed the link.
Best,
Robert
August 10, 2011 - 11:15am
#5
Hi Josh,
I do like the simplicity of the single-speed bike, but, even with my relatively flat commute, there are times (such as windy days) when I'd like some gear options. Actually, this brings to mind another question... I place the Boardwalk on the overhead rack on the train on the "chain" side because it seems to ride best that way (less awkwardness with the folded handlebar, somehow). Seems like that would be a bad idea with a derailleur, but not so with an internal hub. Does Tern have a recommendation regarding transport and which way to lie folders on unforgiving metal racks?
Thanks!
Robert
August 10, 2011 - 1:19pm
#6
Hello Robert,
What you are describing is excessive chain wear damaging your sprockets. Thus, your new chain will no longer work properly with your damaged sprockets. Normally you need to replace the chain after a small amount of (apparent) stretch.
For further reading:
http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
scroll down to about 60% down the page, starting with section "Chain and Sprocket Wear"
If you want to shed the necessity of maintaining your drivetrain, ask about Gates Carbon Drive! :)
- Daniel
August 10, 2011 - 3:30pm
#7
Thanks, Daniel!
August 10, 2011 - 4:06pm
#8
If you had to remove links that soon then you may not be maintianing the chain well enough., Wear of more than 1/2" in most chain lengths is unusual and the chain should be replaced along with the rear cog. After replacing it then you shoud remove, clean and lube and reinstall it every 3 months or so depending on how much dirt and moisture you encounter
An internal gear hub would still have chain wear too., I think the models with more than 3 planetary gears ratios are good investments for non-competitive cyclist!
Slim
August 10, 2011 - 4:10pm
#9
PS:
For one of our folders for our sailboat, I purchased a Boardwalk single speed and replaced the rear wheel with a 8 speed Shimano coaster brake, internal gear hub that my wife REALLY likes. It seems rock solid and never gives problems. It also has s larger tooth count on the rear cog which reduces wear or rather distributres it over more cogs taking longer to wear.
August 10, 2011 - 5:22pm
#10
I read somewhere that if you replace chains regularly and before they elongate too much the sprockets will not wear.
(I've set my target at 0.5% elongation for an IGH 1/8" chain, which is extremely conservative, but with my amount of riding, that will be years!)
August 10, 2011 - 11:40pm
#11
Hi Josh,
I do like the simplicity of the single-speed bike, but, even with my relatively flat commute, there are times (such as windy days) when I'd like some gear options. Actually, this brings to mind another question... I place the Boardwalk on the overhead rack on the train on the "chain" side because it seems to ride best that way (less awkwardness with the folded handlebar, somehow). Seems like that would be a bad idea with a derailleur, but not so with an internal hub. Does Tern have a recommendation regarding transport and which way to lie folders on unforgiving metal racks?
Thanks!
Robert
Hi Robert, You are right - I forgot to mention resistance to damage during transport as an advantage of hub gears. With a hub geared bike we recommend laying a Tern bike on the chain side. We make the same recommendation for a bike with a Neos derailleur because it is well protected from damage. With a SRAM or Shimano derailleur, we'll need to check.
January 11, 2012 - 10:57am
#12
I've been using a Dahon Boardwalk for almost two years now for my daily ride (3 mi. each way) between the commuter rail station and my workplace. I found after about a year of riding that the chain had stretched so much that I had to remove one of the links (after reaching the limit of the rear dropout). I've been thinking that I'd like for my next bike to have an internal hub because it seems it might hold up better to commuting abuse than a derailleur, but I am a little concerned that I'd be faced with a similar problem with the chain over time. Any thoughts, both about the chain stretch problem and the more general question of internal hub v. derailleur? Thanks! -Robert
I think you would have had more severe wear on a derailleur over the same time span than you had with your one speed bike owing to the ability to maintain an optimal chain line on the one speed hub. Going to a three speed or greater number of gears in an internal hub will maintain the optimal chain line. I agree with others that your wear may have been hastened through improper lubrication. You want to be in the habit of removing the crud which accumulates and relubricating frequently. I tried wax lubes but I think that hastened my own chain deterioration because it doesn't get into the center of the links as well as oils do. Currenly I prefer regular motor oil over the expensive exotics.
There are advantages in internal hub gears beyond lower maintenance and cleaner exteriors: the best is the fact that you can change gears while standing still or when you can no longer pedal up a steep hill, unlike all derailleurs. I just find them so much easier to use that I prefer three speeds to derailleurs with many many more gears.
Sheldon Brown definitely recommended that you discard any chain which had warn down enough to stretch 1/8 inch over a 12 inch length (1%) or you begin to destroy the chain ring and sprockets which wear irregularly against the stretching chain. Your going back to the old chain and keeping the worn sprockets probably is not going to do any worse: you could just let them wear down together at this point until the chain falls off the bike, then replace all three at once. But make sure you have at least one hand brake in case the chain breaks, as it is increasingly likely to do as it wears down to a skeleton of itself. Next time swap out the chain before it reaches 1% stretch to preserve the more expensive sprockets.
August 16, 2011 - 6:41am
#13
Many thanks to Daniel, Slim, Josh, and Keith for your thoughtful responses. I will definitely pay more attention to chain wear/maintenance in the future. Cheers! -Robert
January 3, 2012 - 9:00am
#14
Hi Josh,
I just bought a Link P9 and it has been a pleasure so far. As I would be putting it in the car trunk occasionally, how would you recommend laying the bike? Chain/derailleur side or folded handle bar side?
The dealer who I bought the bike from suggested to lay it on the handle bar side, thus I find your above comment an interesting one.
Thanks.
CH
January 4, 2012 - 12:12am
#15
Hi CH – To be honest, I haven’t looked closely at this but I’d start putting it on the chainring side. There’s more surface area. If you lay it on the handlebar side, all the force is put on the handlepost.
January 4, 2012 - 8:58pm
#16
I echo CH's thought. The dealer from whom I bought my P9 also said to lay the bike on the handlepost side. Previously when I had a Dahon bike where the handlepost folds between the wheels, I was told to lay the bike on the flat wheel side in order not to damage the chain/gears/deraileur on the other side.
Notwithstanding that the P9 handlepost now folds to the side, I guess it was logical for the dealer to stick to the same train of thought. However, if Tern now officially recommends laying it on the chain/gears side, we want to believe that it is indeed what's best for the bike.
Ser
January 4, 2012 - 10:52pm
#17
Regarding chain wear on the different types of drivetrains, I think it might be a wash. I've got bikes with both kinds, and I regularly check for wear with a gauge (http://media.performancebike.com/images/performance/products/1500/40-3545-NCL-TOP.jpg) and replace at or slightly before 1.0% elongation. I seem to be getting about 2,500 to 3,000 miles on a chain regardless of type. My mountain bike needs chains a bit more often; my records indicate replacement at about 2,000 miles. All my bikes have their original chainrings and cogs, and none of them appears worn. Some of these cogs have well over 5,000 miles on them.
The chains with only two sprockets to deal with are generally wider, so there's more bearing area which should slow wear. But there are fewer links, so the chain goes around the sprockets somewhat faster which, you'd think, would accelerate wear.
Derailleur drivetrains will be narrower; less bearing area per link. They are longer, so fewer "links per unit road distance" passing the sprockets might tend to reduce wear. But then you have the chain flexing as the sprockets are changed. Also there are the two extra pulleys on the derailleur where the chain flexes in a different direction.
It seems to me that the only time a chain flexes is when the adjacent links rotate into the position necessary to engage a sprocket. If the sprocket tooth has been engaged before the flexing occurs, then there might not be much wear taking place on each flex because the pivot wouldn't be loaded so heavily. Maybe this is why new chains on worn cogs wear out faster. Also, the smaller the radius of the cog, the more angular flex and, you'd think, more wear. So keeping the chain on the largest sprockets possible ought to minimize wear.
OK... I'm done. My brain hurts. I think it's safe to say that if you start with a new drivetrain, lube the chain regularly (and often) and change the chain at no more than 1% elongation, your drivetrain will last a good long time.
Steve
EDIT: I have found that when I lay my folding bikes on their drivetrain sides, the plastic chainguards tend to get cracked or worse. So I lay them down on the non-drive side. Both of them have the handlepost between the wheels, though. I'd agree with Josh for bikes that don't have fragile plastic chainguards; the handlepost is less well-equipped to handle the load. I any case, if you don't toss the bike around it should be OK.
January 11, 2012 - 12:15pm
#18
...OK... I'm done. My brain hurts. I think it's safe to say that if you start with a new drivetrain, lube the chain regularly (and often) and change the chain at no more than 1% elongation, your drivetrain will last a good long time.
Steve
EDIT: I have found that when I lay my folding bikes on their drivetrain sides, the plastic chainguards tend to get cracked or worse. So I lay them down on the non-drive side. Both of them have the handlepost between the wheels, though. I'd agree with Josh for bikes that don't have fragile plastic chainguards; the handlepost is less well-equipped to handle the load. I any case, if you don't toss the bike around it should be OK.
Steve, I've thought about the factors that promote chain and sprocket wear, and your analysis is helpful. I think generally where there is more surface area supporting the same load with less flex, that there will be less wear. If we had a bike with an infinitely long chain, each link would only be used once, and wear would be strictly on the sprockets alone. Obviously a shorter chain gets recycled more often, and wears faster. The derailleur chains being longer certainly take longer to go around, and therefore should last longer too, if you can discount the chain tensioner figure 8 where there probably is much less wear due to there being less tension there. But if the entire chain takes longer to wear you have to consider that the longer chain has more links which probably costs proportionately more and so the slower wear there is a wash; it is as if you are wearing out 1.5 chains at once--if it takes 1.5 times longer and costs 1.5 times as much when you replace it, there really is no benefit.
I think that the chainline issue is a larger factor than the direct wear on the sprockets: whenever the chain forms an "S" shape when viewed in the sprocket disk's plane, the chain is being given a workout just getting between the two sprockets: I am sure that this wears the internals of the chain worse than while on the sprockets. I suspect that more of a chain's wear is internal than the external wear against the sprockets; this is why my dry wax lube was not as effective since it was not readily replenished once squeezed out of the chain interior. Of course once the chain stretches, the conflict with the sprocket dimensions leads to more external wear on both the chain and sprockets which subsequently begin to deform to accommodate the lengthening chain. Derailleurs having multiple sprockets probably helps lessen the wear on any one since it is a shared load, but the chain is wearing just as much regardless which sprocket is doing the job at that moment. And as the chain stretches, it is affecting all the sprockets it encounters, obviously more so on more frequently used gears. But again, it is using gears where the chain has to bend sideways under load where the worst damage occurs, I think. (For instance, using the biggest or smallest rear sprockets with a front sprocket on the opposite side instead of using sprockets which are aligned. Most people just select the gear for their number (fifth gear, sixth gear, etc.) and don't consider how the chain is aligned with the sprockets below.) And this misalignment chain wear is minimized on internal hub transmissions where the two sprockets are perfectly aligned at all times and the chain never has to tack sideways, only bending the direction of the chain links.
On the question of how to lay a folding bike on its side on a rack or shelf, some may have to do with the spacing of the bars of the rack, or the material used (stainless steel bars vs. wood or Nylon straps, etc.) and whether the different projections such as the axle or the gears or the shifter/derailleur mechanisms can poke between the supports or get damaged by interference. However, as a general rule, I have always laid my folding bikes with the chain sides UP. This is more to keep the greasy chains and sprockets from touching anything else than for any other reason. If these touch a shelf, rack, carpet, upholstery, etc., others are not going to be glad they put their luggage in the same spot after I have departed. It is a matter of courtesy more than which way the bike prefers to sit. And absorbent materials may incur costly-to-clean stains if this is not observed. I try to keep my bike clean of any transferrable dirt on at least one folded side, and since the chain is always at least wet with oil, it is the opposite side which I keep wiped clean. Additionally, chain guards are fragile and may crack under the weight of the bike, and I am particularly worried about the (3 speed) indicator chain and gear cable linkatures on the chain side which are much more vulnerable to damage under the weight of the entire bike pressed against a rail below. On derailleurs, you have even more exposed elements to get bent, and more greasy sprockets to spread stains. Now if the entire bike is in a bag, assuming the bag is protected with a non-porus lining, the grease/oil transference issue is removed, but the vulnerability of the little fragile parts caught under the weight of the bike against the shelf is still a factor. It is simpler to just keep the chain and sprocket side UP, in my view.
I hope that may be helpful to the questioner.
January 11, 2012 - 3:49pm
#19
Derailleurs having multiple sprockets probably helps lessen the wear on any one since it is a shared load, but the chain is wearing just as much regardless which sprocket is doing the job at that moment.
I think the angular deflection is greater on smaller sprockets (smaller radius of curvature), so I'd expect more wear...but maybe not so's anyone could tell!
I agree with the analysis of the lateral chain flex, because that reduces the bearing area in each link, so wear would be increased.
Wow! All this over a bicycle chain!!
Steve
January 20, 2012 - 11:49pm
#20
FYI, Raleigh sells the 2012 Folding i8, which incorporates a Shimano 8 speed internal hub. The bike looks like a re-branded Dahon. If you live in or near Richmond, Virginia, you can buy it at Agee's Bicycles for $599.99 as of 01-20-12.
January 21, 2012 - 4:44pm
#21
The Raleigh Folding i8 is a nice folder, particularly at its price point. I am pretty certain that it is NOT a re-branded Dahon. (This has been discussed in other forums.) The main latch handle and the handlepost latch handle look similar to those on some Dahons, but the main latch and the handlepost latch are, AFAIK, not like those on any Dahon.
-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA
January 22, 2012 - 3:54pm
#22
It looks like you're probably correct, but I'll withhold judgment until an authority weighs in and confirms it. Any speculation on who actually builds it?
Thanks.
January 22, 2012 - 10:42pm
#23
It's interesting that Raleigh became Dahon's UK distributor as of January of 2012 after Zyro dropped its Dahon and Biologic lines. See: http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/raleigh-snaps-up-dahon/011769 Maybe there's more of a connection between Raleigh's i8 and Dahon than some have speculated.
January 22, 2012 - 10:50pm
#24
... I'll withhold judgment until an authority weighs in and confirms it. Any speculation on who actually builds it? ...
FWIW, my wife and I own a bike shop that is an authorized dealer for Raleigh and Dahon (and Tern 
). We have a Raleigh i8 on the showroom and nine different models of Dahons. I assembled most of them and have folded, unfolded and ridden all of them. I don't know which company in China manufactures the Folding i8 for Raleigh.
-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA
January 22, 2012 - 11:25pm
#25
FYI, Raleigh sells the 2012 Folding i8, which incorporates a Shimano 8 speed internal hub. The bike looks like a re-branded Dahon. If you live in or near Richmond, Virginia, you can buy it at Agee's Bicycles for $599.99 as of 01-20-12.
See, this is the problem with rebranding bikes: it confuses the issue of whether we should consider buying from another company what looks like a rebranded bike by our favorite manufacturer, or avoid buying what is a patent infringement example. I'd like to be a loyal customer, if I could always be sure of what is the work of that company.
January 22, 2012 - 11:52pm
#26
I am assuming that if, and it's a big if, particularly in light of Hank's comments above, the Raleigh i8 is in fact a rebranded Dahon, it's an instance of Raleigh incorporating a Dahon-licensed frame, not patent infringement. Whether to purchase it or not should be based solely on its quality and value, not any presumed manufacturer's loyalty that IMHO appears to run one way only.
January 22, 2012 - 11:57pm
#27
I replied to the wrong post. This reply is directed to Hank Ryan: Thanks for the info. Do you sell your bikes via the internet? If so, what is your web address?
January 23, 2012 - 3:03pm
#28
I replied to the wrong post. This reply is directed to Hank Ryan: Thanks for the info. Do you sell your bikes via the internet? If so, what is your web address?
We only do in-store retail sales. I generally refer on-line/mail-order inquiries to www.thorusa.com. Our website is at:
http://www.alsbicycles.com/pages/als_bicycles_norman_ok
-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA
January 23, 2012 - 4:44pm
#29
I am assuming that if, and it's a big if, particularly in light of Hank's comments above, the Raleigh i8 is in fact a rebranded Dahon, it's an instance of Raleigh incorporating a Dahon-licensed frame, not patent infringement. Whether to purchase it or not should be based solely on its quality and value, not any presumed manufacturer's loyalty that IMHO appears to run one way only.
Raleigh is a well respected name with a long history, so I would not assume otherwise: if it looks like a Dahon (or Tern) it probably is licensed technology. And if they have licensed the technology, the consumer is actually supporting both companies by purchasing.
The question of loyalty going one way only can be addressed pragmatically: if you find a good product, dependably well made for reasonable cost, doesn't it make sense to keep buying it and recommend it to others? And if the company provides excellent support after the purchase, that is another reason to stick with that company. That is loyalty to a brand name that pays dividends.
If you only go after the cheapest price and don't care whether the technology is stolen, after a short while the innovative company which made the originals will cease to exist and we all suffer for having fewer quality choices available to us. So brand loyalty makes sense to me.
January 24, 2012 - 11:51pm
#30
I am assuming that if, and it's a big if, particularly in light of Hank's comments above, the Raleigh i8 is in fact a rebranded Dahon, it's an instance of Raleigh incorporating a Dahon-licensed frame, not patent infringement. Whether to purchase it or not should be based solely on its quality and value, not any presumed manufacturer's loyalty that IMHO appears to run one way only.
As a general proposition your argument makes some sense, but it's too simplistic to be of much "pragmatic" benefit. I suggest that you read the book, Against Intellectual Property, by Professors Boldren and Levine, which can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Against-Intellectual-Monopoly-Michele-Boldrin/dp/0..., but this is not the forum to debate it. I will note, however, that when I wrote that "...loyalty appears to run one way only," I was referring to the Dahon company's lack of reciprocity, i.e., despite the idolatry displayed by some customers towards the Dahon company, the Dahon company's loyalty to its customers generally ended at the point of purchase. Apparently, Josh Dahon recognized this and is trying to change it. Time will tell.
January 25, 2012 - 8:16am
#31
... the Dahon company's loyalty to its customers generally ended at the point of purchase.
What is your evidence for "generally"? Do you have access to data that is not presented to the rest of us?
Also, don't confuse "fanboy-ism" with "idolatry"! 
Steve
January 27, 2012 - 10:58am
#32
OK Guys .. calm down
Dahon is and has been in the past the best bike company to deal with in regards to warranty and in general to make things right for the consumer. To say that their involvement stopped after the sale of the bike is simply wrong.
Now Tern wants to IMPROVE on that situation even more, which is a lofty goal, a goal which the whole Tern Team is poised to achieve. And so far it looks good, very good actually what communication, manuals, service, etc etc concern....
But again to say that about Dahon is simply not fair. Enough said.
Interlectual property is just that ..property .... something which belongs to somebody ... if you copy it, you steal it. If too many people steal than you are broke. Thats what Keith is saying and rightfully so ....
thor
January 28, 2012 - 8:40am
#33
It looks like you're probably correct, but I'll withhold judgment until an authority weighs in and confirms it. Any speculation on who actually builds it?
Thanks.
February 22, 2012 - 1:59am
#34
I'm way late to the party, I realize. Better late than never, as they say.
I typically get about 5,000 miles out of a chain on a derailleur bike. I only have 900 miles on my IGH bike (a rebuilt Raleigh 20 with a Sturmey Archer SA8 hub), so I can't speak for that one. I should think a properly cared for and adjusted single speed will get even more miles than a derailleur set-up because the chain line is or should always be perfect on the singlespeed. If you only got 2,000 miles out of it, then it's either not properly cared for (lubricated, cleaned,etc) and/or not properly adjusted (not enough tension, too much tension, or the chain line isn't right).
That being said, ask 100 cyclists what their preferred chain lube is and you'll probably get 100 different answers. I personally perfer a quick drying silicon lube. I pick it up in a spray can at the hardware store for about $4. It lubricates well, dries fast so it doesn't attract debris, and is cheap. On the flip side, it doesn't last as long as thicker lubes, so it has to be applied more often than say a chain wax.
A chain wax, which I used for a while, will get wax all over the drive train. The wax will mix with little metal particles from the wearing drivetrain and create a black, waxy mess in your drivetrain. A wet lube (I've heard people use chain saw oil because it's thick and sticky, so it stays on the chain; motor oil; or various bike specific wet lubes) collects debris and makes a mess of the drivetrain, though it may last longer. Bicycle specific silicon lubes do the same as the spray cans I pick up at the hardware store, but for 2x the cost. No thanks.
Robert
chainwear of course depends on a lot of things, how many miles, what weather, how often you clean the chain, to name a few. Your boardwalk has one speed I assume .... I would think that with more gears you will have less torque and more spin on the drivetrain .... lessening the wear of the chain.
If you do have to exchange the chain after a couple thousand miles... it might just be not a totally wrong thing to do after all. Just think about all the gas you have saved during that time .... a new chain is gonna be petty cash compared to that.
thor
www.ThorUSA.com Tern: Its all about the ride Dahon: Freedom unfolds